So, first with the job interview, trusting that the Lord will provide, or will get the job that glorifies Him is perhaps more Biblical that getting the desire of your heart (without concern for the glory of God or being led by the Spirit). I suppose that in trusting the Lord, one would not lie in the interview or do things ungodly to get the job.

In that vein, our defense against persecution would need to be God-directed, especially since there is a plethera of verses in the Sermon in the Mount, that would suggest quite the opposite. I showed there is a precedent for the people of God to act with violence against aggression, but that always was in direction of God. There is no precedent for us to will a war, and fight it- but quite the contrary- all of Joshua’s and the Kings campaigns without consulting God (or His prophet) ended in failure.

We can’t just forget what we have read in the Bible about glory in tribulation, bless those who curse you, turn the other cheek, in the world you will have tribulation, be of good cheer I have overcome the world, blessed are those who are persecuted for my sake and act on instinct.

There are a lot of Copts, including myself, who think that our plight is not much different to the mistreatment of other minorities. Whether that is true or not, that is not the point, but with such hesitance and disunity, it is almost inconceivable to think of such a drastic action, apart from the usual way of legislating freedom of rights.

It’s just like trusting that the Lord will get you the job you want, and so you don’t bother preparing for the interview…it doesn’t work that way…

That verse you hold to reminded me of this passage:

17 Though the fig tree may not blossom,
Nor fruit be on the vines;
Though the labor of the olive may fail,
And the fields yield no food;
Though the flock may be cut off from the fold,
And there be no herd in the stalls—
18 Yet I will rejoice in the LORD,
I will joy in the God of my salvation.
19 The LORD God [c] is my strength;
He will make my feet like deer’s feet,
And He will make me walk on my high hills. (Hab 3:17-19 NKJV)

Maybe there is a lesson here that those who have no qualms for protest, should not neglect to rejoice in the Lord among the horror.

GBU.

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked. (Ps. 82:2-4 NIV)

We are all to pattern ourselves after Christ. That said, I believe you are severely limiting yourself to God revealed in Jesus during His few years of His earthly ministry (and even them superficially, I feel). You may have neglected to recall or take to consideration of God in the Old Testament- how angry He was at the abuses the Jews suffered under Egypt, the Chaldeans, the Phillistines and Assyrians.

And we notice that God’s delivery of the Israelites did not come from peaceful means, but by violence- and that israel was never a passive observer, but active. I understand that they were acting as a Nation, but it does show that violence has a place (the place though is up for discussion, not the existence of violence itself).

There is a difference between grown-ups offering the other check like Christ exhorted us to ;and offering your child or brother or sister to constant fear, a life of disadvantage, bondage and death (and worse), as Nathan and many others attest to as to be happening. The former is humility; the latter is lack of responsibility and hardness towards suffering.

The prophets spoke up for the poor, the widows, the captives of the land. They did not just pray for it, but there was an imperative on them to make it known. This imperative should now be ours, I believe, because I think that God has given us freedom to speak up for His people, and these issues to whoever this happens to.

Here is a particular example of God speaking through a Prophet speaking out on injustice:

1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
to those who issue oppressive decrees,

2 to deprive the poor of their rights
and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey
and robbing the fatherless. (Isa. 10)

We are not talking about “rights”, we are talking about life and death. I feel we have a responsibility before God to ensure justice.

Here is a particular exhortation:

17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed. [a]
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow. (Isa 1)

If your child died in untoward circumstances, and you could have protected him or her, would you not feel responsible?

That said, I am not entirely convinced that a civil war is in anyway justified. But protesting, and speaking up for the oppressed in a peaceful way is certainly Christian. A man or family, defending a family member from violence with violence is also not unchristian.

For evil to happen, all is needed is a few good men to do nothing.

Well that is how I see it anyway.

We pray for the deliverance of the Copts in Egypt. Well, were these victims not delivered into the bosom of our Lord? What more could we ask for? They got the ultimate reward for what they went through, and now they are no longer suffering.

I’m sad that my brothers and sisters in Egypt will constantly live in fear. I’m sad that the simple things in life, such as going to church, could prove to be fatal. I’m hurting with them. But we need to understand that this is reality – this is how it has always been. The most we can do for our brothers and sisters is pray for their safety and hope for God’s will to be done. No, Mubarak will not save the lives of the Copts in Egypt. No, the Australian/Canadian/American/European government(s) will not save the lives of the Copts in Egypt. This is a matter we need to leave at the feet of Christ, because we cannot resolve it.

Just to quote a good friend of mine, “The riches of this world are money, fame, power, freedom, equal rights, and anything else that is desired.  So what are we fighting for here?  Are we fighting for the things that are of Heaven or that which decays and tomorrow will be thrown into the furnace with the chaff?  If we have our hearts, our minds and our spirits focused on God, then what does it matter what they do to our bodies?  Shall we trade an eternity in Heaven for a few decades of peace on the perishing Earth?” I think he raises a very valid point. So yes, living in safety is a basic ‘right’, but it is also one of the riches in this world.

I’m also not sure how “this has nothing to do with the Copts and their Church, but everything to do with the Copts as a people.” Well, first off, I’d like to say that I would like to hope that the Copts and the Church would determine the behaviour of the Copts as a people. And if that’s not the case, then I’m not really sure why they would associate themselves with the Coptic Orthodox Church. Second, if we truly believe that is true, the same can be said about Islam. These actions did not have to do with the Muslim faith, but rather it was the actions of [a few] Muslim people. This thought does not seem to be exhibited by the majority of the Egyptian Christians who have spoken about this matter…

All in all, if you would like to take up arms and ‘fight for your rights’, by all means, go for it. I for one, will do my best to follow the example that Christ set for me. No one said it would be an easy road… “strive to enter through the narrow gate.”

Pray for me,
/sm

It’s easy for you to make these comments while watching from afar, but imagine going to the victims of this recent massacre and saying those words. I am quite sure that your comments will not be well received.

This has nothing to do with the Church and everything to do with the people protecting themselves and demanding their civil rights.

I agree with you that the situation in Egypt is never going to change unless God decides to intervene, but in the mean time the people have the right to feel safe.

The issue is not really about these isolated incidents which we hear about such as the massarce of Naj Hamadi or the conflict at Abu Fana Monastery to name the most recent; the issue is that the people are constantly living in fear. In fear of theft and injury, in fear of kidnap and rape, and in fear of general discrimination in their schools, work places and societies. These things are occuring everyday, but because we never hear about them we think everything is fine, and we only cause an uproar when one of these larger incidents occur.

To live without fear and in saftey is the most basic of human rights and the Copts are being denied this and instead are living in constant fear and anxiety, which is the worst way to live.

So the Coptic people, as a minority, need to become a force of strength. This has nothing to do with the Copts and their Church, but everything to do with the Copts as a people.

Whatever happened to turning the other cheek? What ever happened to loving our enemies? What happened to following the example Christ set for us?

When are we going to realize that our actions (i.e. protests, meetings with government officials, etc.) have done nothing for us in the past? When are we going to realize that it’s not our actions that will stop this madness, but rather the grace of God.

Seriously. When I read stuff like this, I worry for the future of the church.

Amen, come Lord Jesus.

I have to admit that the plight of the persected Copts of Egypt often does not compare to what has occured and is still occuring to other peoples.
But that’s not the point.

The point is this, and herein lies the problem; that the Egyptian Government has denied any of this of occuring, putting up a facade in front of the world that Egypt’s Muslims peacefully coexist with their Christian brothers, and that the sectarian violence is nothing more than village conflict. So the world sees Egypt as a ‘moderate’ Arab country, with a stable and fair government, unlike others in the region.

So Egypt is lying to the world. The image Egypt is portraying is far too different from it’s reality, and as long as this continues, nothing will change. The Islamic Brotherhood will continue to be funded by the Saudis, fundamentalism will continue to grow, and the Government will continue to turn a blind eye, blaming the outside world of meddling in Egypt’s internal affairs.

That’s where the problem lies, that’s what makes the Coptic persecution different to the persecution of other peoples; that it’s all under cover.
Admittedly, in a country where Islam exists with other faiths, there will always be sectarian violence. That is not the issue. It’s when this sectarian violence is downplayed, denied and encouraged that there becomes a problem.

And not until the Coptic people start to fight back, and I mean REALLY fight back, that the world will become fully aware of their plight and the reality of Egypt will be exposed.
We can protest from the outside all we like. The Sydney protest a couple of weeks ago has come and gone and it achieved nothing. The fighting, the protests and the demand for equality and peaceful living has to and needs to come from the inside of Egypt.

We did not fight the Arabs when they entered our land in 616 AD because we saw their coming as a possible freedom from the previous oppression under Byzantium. We were wrong, they let us down, maybe now it’s time for us to fight and defend our land as fervently as we defended the Alexandrian faith and fathers against the Byzantine.